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Author Topic: Global warming  (Read 1574 times)

Ashen Shugar

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Global warming
« on: November 19, 2010, 04:42:58 AM »

Just wondering what you guys think on the subject? Are we experiencing it? Are we to blame?
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Edhelur

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Bacchus

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 12:42:47 PM »

I was always a bit annoyed by the Al Gore-ian global warming hype. The whole of the western civilization was already well aware that Global Warming was an issue, and that the problem might have something to do with large fuel consuming cars. I mean, there where treaties in relation to climate change that the US refused to sign, even though the rest of the world understood it was a problem...

Also, i don't believe there's definite evidence supporting the cause of this climate change either. i don't rule out pollution, but other things might be at work as well
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Edhelur

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 07:29:28 PM »

Okay, for a serious response:

I think saying "the whole of Western Civilization" is a bit narrow-minded, you European you, considering that a fairly large portion (near 50% if I remember rightly) of the U.S. population is not aware that it is an issue. Well, at least some of them are aware, but don't consider it an issue. "It's Earth's natural cycling of hot and cold" ... but it's way hotter than most previous heat cycles have been. Point being, it's hard for any of us to take much action when half disagree -- something the U.S. is becoming known for, I suspect.

Part of the problem, I think, is the insistence on calling it "Global Warming". So you get a whole lot of people in Washington D.C. who get three and a half feet of snow in December, and say "See, it's f**king freezing! Where's that global warming when you need it??" They don't connect the dots: "Well, that snow came from water that evaporated over the Gulf of Mexico, or the Atlantic Ocean. And more snow came than usual... which means more water evaporated than usual ... which means that the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere is rising, and that the temperature overall is rising". (Not that it's quite that straightforward, but something along those lines, anyway).

I agree, bazzy, that there isn't definite evidence supporting climate change being anthropogenic, but we do know that pollution is bad in general and may be / probably is making this worse, so... should cut it out.
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vega1

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 09:53:26 PM »

IMHO... are we to blame? yes. Anyone who thinks we are not having a negative effect on the planet is fooling themselves. Seriously. Is global warming a direct symptom of this same impact? I don't know, but I would be much more surprised if the answer was 'no' then I would be to learn that we are causing it.
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Bacchus

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 12:55:32 PM »

Well, one of the reasons the US failed to recognize the Global Warming problem so late, had to do with oil consumption and over-sized cars. I'm not saying this because of hatred towards the US, cause i have none, but i believe the US still didn't sign the Kyoto-protocol. I don't think it has anything to do with how the people feel, and whether they think it is a hoax or not. I'm pretty sure that if you ask the US people if they think the nation should give money to the pour countries, the majority will so no. But that doesn't mean they should stop giving third world countries any help. The government also needs to have a long-term view for their country and the planet. So refusal to sign the Kyoto treaty is just redneck ignorance

but yeah, apart from the fact that the Global Warming might have nothing to do with pollution, it wouldn't harm anyone to treat the planet a bit better.
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Edhelur

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 07:33:49 AM »

Well, admittedly, fuel consumption by (all) cars is a serious problem. If the whole world, at current population, tried out the lifestyle we damn-lucky Americans were born into, it would take at least 5 Earths to support it (I believe.. was brought up in a class last year). There's a lot more at play here than "I don't want to give up my car". If you look at a map of a U.S. city, most aren't built in a manner that can accommodate any other transportation: people live twenty-or-more miles away from their workplace, and few want to manage an hour-and-a-half bike ride (maybe an hour if you're fast) for a commute. Many don't have adequate bus systems, let alone trains, and even if they do the buses often have a bad reputation (sometimes deserved). There's an interesting blend of social stigma operating, too: people will frown if you drive a Hummer, but they'll give you funny looks for coming in sweaty.

Not to mention that we have a pretty strong oligarchy/plutocracy. The rich rule this place, more or less. I think "the people" have some power, but alone, the 40% of us who are concerned to some degree or another, won't manage to pass legislation actively limiting emissions to a reasonable standard. There's also the classism that goes on: being "green" is something upper-middle-class people can afford to do.

None of this is an excuse, per se. Something does need to be done. I actually was recently talking about a project that would be so f**king cool (and rather prohibitively expensive). Imagine that even a few of the highways in the U.S. were built out of solar panels, covered by glass built to be driven on (which actually exists, according to the engineering major who was telling me about this). They're in the sun all day, and have massive surface area. Not to mention, if we built pull-outs with battery boxes, the electric car would be so much more feasible. So when you buy your car, you buy a battery plus a certain fee for re-charges; you get to one of these pull-outs, slide your credit card (also insurance against thefts, as it would charge you if you didn't return it), put in your old one, pull out a fresh one, and off you go.

SO f**kING COOL.

And so off topic.
But awesome.

:D
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vega1

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 07:34:49 PM »

Excellent post Edhelur, and right on the button on all your points. I would jump at the chance for example to take rail/subway to work (~15 miles) and avoid driving if I could, but no such option exists. Not an excuse, just a fact.

As far as the Kyoto-protocol, I am completely talking out my ass here and don't pretend to understand its nuances. But is not a large portion of that protocol the inclusion of the ability for countries to exchange what amounts to pollution credits? So for example, one country with a large amount of emissions could purchase the credits needed to keep their current emissions from a poorer country with lower emissions? This makes no sense to me and seems counter to the intent of reducing overall emissions. Maybe I've got that wrong.
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Edhelur

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 01:50:35 AM »

Actually, I live in range of a really good bus system. They have lots of routes, and are fairly safe, and usually on time, etc etc etc. Being a student, my bus pass costs $72 a year, while an un-student adult pass is $70 a month for local and regional service (mainly because it's required for all students to buy it, when only a third or so use it as much as I do -- twice a day, almost every day). For me, it's a matter of expense and convenience to bus and bike -- parking on campus is a total bitch.
For me, it's plausible. My commute totals about 25 minutes on the bus; I have a cheap pass; I live within range; I'm damn lucky to live where I do. For most people, it's not.
The suburban sprawl created in the 1950s-and-onwards post-WWII boom pushes everyone to the border of the city. Inner cities have a reputation of being unsafe and unclean, not to mention dominated by people of various non-whitey-pinky-tanny colored skin. No one mentions it, but race is a pretty important part of the poor inner city problems. Looking at a map of a city, you see that in general the ultra-rich live in the nice downtown areas, the poor live in a neighborhood not far off to one side, and the middle-class live in a giant area of houses with yards out to the other side.
Solution? Increase urban density. Problem? Kick all poor Black people out of their homes. Solution? Integrate racial neighborhoods. Problem? Whites usually move out of integrated neighborhoods. Solution? Integrate schools. Problem? Lack of transportation from one side of the city to another. Solution? Increase urban density......

See?

(still off topic-ish, I know, but .. yea.)
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"They had tried to reach their living fellows in fabled depths of blackness they had never seen - and what had they found? ... We looked and understood what must have triumphed and survived down there in the Cyclopean water city of that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss..."

Ashen Shugar

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 04:10:11 AM »

Bloody carbon emission creating auto mobiles. We even managed to screw mars up and we only sent a few vehicles there... and they were probably solar powered!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html





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Ashen Shugar

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 01:36:27 AM »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

an article where one of the leading scientists behind the man made global warming theory admitting he "lost" data and that there has been no significant global warming for years.

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/no_evidence.pdf

This guy does a pretty good job of explaining why there is a good chance the IPCC maybe wrong.
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Bacchus

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Re: Global warming
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 03:45:12 PM »

None of this is an excuse, per se. Something does need to be done. I actually was recently talking about a project that would be so f**king cool (and rather prohibitively expensive). Imagine that even a few of the highways in the U.S. were built out of solar panels, covered by glass built to be driven on (which actually exists, according to the engineering major who was telling me about this). They're in the sun all day, and have massive surface area. Not to mention, if we built pull-outs with battery boxes, the electric car would be so much more feasible. So when you buy your car, you buy a battery plus a certain fee for re-charges; you get to one of these pull-outs, slide your credit card (also insurance against thefts, as it would charge you if you didn't return it), put in your old one, pull out a fresh one, and off you go.

Well, Electrical cars where cruising LA in the mid 1990's. Yes, the same US i've been bashing for ignorance towards pollution and fuel consumption had, at one time, a legislation that said that a percentage of cars produced by car-manufacturers had to be electric. LA even has an infrastructure to power these vehicles. If you're interested in this, and the reasons for the failure of this otherwise successful attempt, you should watch the documentary Who Killed the Electric Car. Its really worth a watch.
But the reason this car failed to succeed, despite being a really popular car and the vehicle of choice of many celebrities (the car looked awesome as well btw), can be found in the fact that the US behaves as a plutarchy. The big corporations (who often fund electoral campaigns) call the shots.

But yeah, i don't need a car, cause i can go everywhere i want using public transportation. I think we boast an excellent system of public transportation, and i have in my vicinity a tram and bus station, two metro stations (tram, bus and metro all walking distance, as in, only walking a few minutes) and two train stations. If i want to travel to places as Amsterdam or Den Hague, i'll get there a lot faster using public transportation. And if you're a student, the use of public transportation is free, so i've always been keen to use it. Truth be told, the countryside isn't so easily accessed, but public transportation in the cities is awesome. Same can be said for cities as London, Berlin or New York, so it isn't really a dutch thing.
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"If nobody comes down here and buys a car in the next hour, I'm gonna club this baby seal. That's right! I'm gonna club this seal to make a better deal. You know I'll do it, too, cause I'm crazy."

- Crazy Ernie
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