The Catholic Church

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Author Topic: The Catholic Church  (Read 8049 times)

charles

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2010, 08:44:46 AM »

 :elf_gloop:

That is a strange one for openly gay parents to enroll their kid/s in a catholic school, although I think there is a bit of a movement here and there for homosexuals to still be religious while being openly gay but I think it's just some protestant groups.  I can only guess that their public schools must have some bad reputations or maybe the catholic school in question just has a good record for providing a better education (which can often be the case with any private school, regardless of if they also try to instill their belief systems in the children who attend... If the parents are relatively strong advocates for homosexuality (same-sex marriage, etc) then another possibility is they did this on purpose to then get their child kicked out and make headlines. Seems too sinister a thing for parents to do to their own child but other parents have done more with their own children in order to prove points and make political statements, etc.

Don't know if I'd really blame the church too much in this.  I'm relatively sure they'd do the same if the parents both took part in other religions, were open athiests or lived any other lifestyle that didn't adhere to the Catholic views.  Their schools have always been relatively picky as to which students can attend their schools based on the parents beliefs and lifestyles.
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Great One

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2010, 11:22:59 PM »

I present a challenger to our member's. Try and make sense of this statement from the Church:

The Roman Catholic Church has opposed abortion, sterilization, and contraception as a general practice, but specifically in regard to population control policies. Pope Benedict XVI has stated that "The extermination of millions of unborn children, in the name of the fight against poverty, actually constitutes the destruction of the poorest of all human beings"
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Edhelur

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2010, 12:25:17 AM »

Well, the (potential) children are being destroyed, yes. Emphasis, of course, on the potential. And I suppose he could mean that preventing people from reproducing is a mental/spiritual destruction, in that they might not live as fully as if they didn't have kids (I don't think that's true, but some do, it seems). From another angle, providing birth control tactics to one population more easily than another can be interpreted as a reformation of eugenics, in that that population will die out if the practice is continued too long. Of course, those populations tend to be the ones that have the most babies and the most trouble keeping the babies and mothers healthy and alive....
The problem seems to lie with a total non-comprehension of 'overpopulation = starvation' problem. Happens with wild animals -- here, humans hunted out the wolves and mountain lions, and the deer population soared and a lot starved. Same thing happens with humans, except that fellow humans consider mass starvation to be more abhorrent in their own kind than in deer, as a general rule, and tend to try to feed them. So instead of the huge starvation die-off, you just end up with a huge population bubble.... or a very wide pyramid demographic.

And in the end, the statement makes sense, just in a back-asswards way.
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Great One

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2010, 12:30:27 AM »

You're missing the, "constitutes the destruction of the poorest of all human beings" bit, which I think is most important of all. I'd like to hear an explanation of that.
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charles

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 07:48:26 AM »

I'll let the pontiff explain it:

Quote from: life news
The pope pointed out that population growth has led to a result in poverty, saying that, in 1981, around 40% of the world's population was below the threshold of absolute poverty and indicating that percentage has been reduced by half despite population growth in some of the worst areas.

"This goes to show that resources to solve the problem of poverty do exist, even in the face of an increasing population," the pontiff said.

"Moreover, among the most developed nations, those with higher birth-rates enjoy better opportunities for development. In other words, population is proving to be an asset, not a factor that contributes to poverty," Pope Benedict concluded.

http://www.lifenews.com/int1039.html

Might need another thread if you're planning to start up the old right to life VS right to choice discussion.
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Edhelur

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 04:01:10 AM »

Quote
in 1981, around 40% of the world's population was below the threshold of absolute poverty and indicating that percentage has been reduced by half despite population growth in some of the worst areas.
But had that percentage been reduced by half (as of when?) in those 'worst areas'? And how much did the population grow by? Were any other poverty-decreasing movements in effect in those times?

Quote
"Moreover, among the most developed nations, those with higher birth-rates enjoy better opportunities for development...."
Which most developed nations? Most of the developed nations have far lower birth rates than their less developed counterparts. Further, how does he distinguish between already-achieved development and continuing development? (To the best of my knowledge, many of the 3rd World nations are being left in the dust, economically/ environmentally/ socially/ politically) And does he take responsibility for the devastation the Church caused in most "undeveloped" countries? You know, saying that it's totally all right to steal as much gold as possible from Africa and the Americas, that it's totally fine by God to enslave Africans and sell them to European colonists in the Americas, that it's just dandy to discourage and destroy native religions, customs, relics, etc....
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charles

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 07:50:54 AM »

*shrug* It's the Pontif's explaination, not mine.  I'll skip comment on the devastation the church has possibly caused.  As for the population comments, I guess there are a few countries which have gone significantly up the chain in recent years despite being known for high population growth.

The Pontif is suggesting that a country's population growth will help it to develop rather than high-population growth being a sign of a developed nation.  So he's saying the countries indicated as the worst in the diagram linked by Edhelur, should become developed or developing nations in the next 20+ years. If the Ponfif's right then we should be able to look back and see that the countries with the highest population growths in, for example, the 80's have since become developed or industrialised nations.

*goes and does some research*

I must confess I thought I was going to find easy evidence to prove the pontif wrong, but I can see that the United Arab Emirates had the highest growth of all between the 50's and 80's with Taiwan, Singapore, Israel (-Gaza,West Bank), The Bahamas, Hong Kong and a few others also appearing in the top of the lists.  Actually I think Western Sahara was about the only African country to show high growth back then with Somalia and Kenya just starting to get high before the 80's.  It isn't until the more recent years that the African countries really start showing high on the list of population growth percentages.

However, it is also noteworthy that many of the countries that did develop had their population growth decrease (heck the United Arab Emirates had the biggest decline in population growth of all with something like a growth of 12% in the 80's to only 3% in recent years).  This could simply be a result of the country's development but it may also be a CAUSE of the country's development which would indicate the opposite of the Pontif's comments (i.e. a poor country must control it's population growth, not keep it high, to successfully develop).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:03:49 AM by charles »
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Edhelur

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2010, 12:01:00 AM »

hmmm kay. Did you notice as you looked that information up if it was population growth caused by more babies, or by adults immigrating to the country? I don't actually know which of the countries you listed might fall in which category (although I did once know an Israeli woman who had seven kids at last count...). At best, I can hypothesize that the African lack of population growth in the 80s would be because of high mortality rates and the fact that very few people in their right minds would permanently immigrate there. Might be wrong there, too.

Did you run across any 'correlation across time' charts or articles? I mean, we could piece it together from various sources, but if you found one, I'd love to see it. Then we could correlate the Church's influence (presence or visits of holy officials; number of churches; percentages of population stating faith) with population growth and prosperity/development/quality-of-life rates.
Still wouldn't necessarily say anything about causation, but it would be a start.

oh, I'm interested now.
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Great One

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2010, 03:47:45 PM »

The Pontiff is currently visiting the UK on a state visit. One of the cherry picks I've heard in reaction yet is:

Quote
1433: British Humanist Association reacts to the Pope's speech with this statement: "The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in god."

Now I want to hear that damn interview! Going to have to check out the news later.

Also, circling around to Stephen Fry, I liked his stance on the Vatican identifying as a state. Where's their Olympic team?

Silly. :lol:
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Bacchus

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2010, 02:33:07 PM »

yeah, read about this. if the Catholic Church wants to be taken seriously at some point, they got to stop saying stuff like this
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Edhelur

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2010, 05:44:16 AM »

Or put together an Olympic team!
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Bacchus

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2010, 11:17:58 AM »

well, i know the Vatican has its own soccer competition. so yeah, why not its own Olympic team. can't loose when you have God on your side
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