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Author Topic: "Brexit"  (Read 1365 times)

Myddrun

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"Brexit"
« on: June 24, 2016, 02:20:39 PM »

May as well open the thread. So the UK voted out of Europe.  :irritated:

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Too irritated to write anything more meaningful at the moment.  :threaten:
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2016, 05:13:42 PM »

To be honest, I didn't like the renegotiated terms either that would have kicked in had Britain stayed. Nor do I like the sluggish, bureaucratic, corrupt EU machinery that is a pain in the arse at times.

That said, I'm pretty rad on EU. I even support the UEF, seeing as they were the only group campaigning for fundamental reforms and a stronger democracy on European level.

For years I've been of the opinion that we should have an European BBC that shares European news and culture to strengthen the Europe love among lower class citizens. But alas.

What I am hoping for right now, is that seeing as the EU has the UK by the balls, we will proceed to twist them off and support Scottish cessation, thereby breaking apart the UK. The end of English stranglehold over Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland sounds good to me. It's too much a powerblock where the English have the first and final say over everything, with disastrous results.

What I would also like to see is a cleanup of the EU: more democracy and strengthening of institutions, less bureaucracy, and corruption being fought. Especially in Eastern Europe.

What I fear is the stuff Angela Merkel says, which boils down to sitting around, drinking tea, saying 'jolly good, let's be friends' and not treat the UK too harsh and give them what they want. Which is a de facto reward for bad behaviour (torpedoing the EU) in my eyes.

As an economical powerblock, we do not need the UK. In fact, we could easily cope for our losses by more increased trade across the continent. What does the UK have that we need? Nothing. Just close the bloody borders, put the immigrants in Calais on the boat to England, and proceed to wreck The City and drive a wedge between Scotland and England. The rest is waiting. The English economy was doing bad, hence why they wanted to join the EU in the first place and they will continue to do so the coming decades as this process has been ongoing for nearly a century, alongside the decolonisation, which was the main engine for past wealth (plunder, extortion, etc.)

That's what the EU should do. But I doubt we have a competent leader to do just that.
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Aurian

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 09:04:59 PM »

I know nothing about European politics so I am intrigued.  I didn't realize leaving Europe was an option.... Also, I'm not understanding what it is they are hoping to gain from this...
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 10:34:18 PM »

What do you want know Aurian?

Europe the continent and the European Union are two different things. In a way it is like Texas holding a referendum to decide whether they want out of the USA.

Then to answer as to why they want out: nationalism combined with bigotry, delusions and lies by populists. As Churchill once said, the best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. People don't understand, are angry and someone gives them a scapegoat. The rest is history. Personally I like JK Rowlings comment who likened brexit to fixing a faulty watch by smashing it with a hammer. :elf_gloop:
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Myddrun

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 01:35:29 PM »

Then to answer as to why they want out: nationalism combined with bigotry, delusions and lies by populists.

Not all of us!

*Almost* 50% of us wanted to stay. Unfortunately *Almost 50%* wasn't good enough. Time will tell if any one in Whitehall actually has the balls to invoke Artical 50. Cammeron *said* he would the morning after but did't and resigned instead passing the buck to the next poor sod.

Now with all the backtracking the Leave Campaign have done over the last few days it would near political suicide since they would probably be next to lead the Conservatives.

Saying that Brussels may insist we invoke it any way and force us to accept new terms we don't want. So either way I think the UK will be shaffted by this.
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 03:24:38 PM »

Force you to accept new terms you don't want? That's the problem with British mentality,  the terms come with what you choose. You can't cherry pick. That is the whole problem with the British. They want the benefits but not the burden.But for this game work, all must share the burden.

You choose Brexit, you have three options: no access to the common market, access like norway or switzerland without influence or withdraw the turd that's brexit (good luck with that).

I know that it's not nice for you all over there, but would prefer an uk fallout. To engrave in people's minds the importance of the EU.
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Edhelur

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 04:40:06 AM »

Saw a meme the other day. A picture of a cat next to some tea. The text says, "I asked Cat for his actual opinion on EU Brexit. He thinks they should repeatedly ask to leave. Then, when the door opens, they should just sit there & stare at it." (Credited to one Adrian Bott).

I'm not really qualified to comment, other than it seems like the Brits who voted 'Leave' (mostly old folks, it seems) made one hell of a mistake. Unfortunately, it is the kind of mistake that the mostly-old-folks won't suffer in the same way the young 'uns will. Not saying that everyone who voted 'Stay' is not utterly p**sed and sad, and many who voted 'Leave' seem to be somewhat remorseful.

Comment #1:
Quote from: Darkon
"What I am hoping for right now, is that seeing as the EU has the UK by the balls, we will proceed to twist them off and support Scottish cessation, thereby breaking apart the UK."
This seems mightily... vicious. I understand impressing people with the ramifications of exiting, but would you say that your opinion is a popular one among folks you know?

Comment #2:
Quote from: Darkon
"In a way it is like Texas holding a referendum to decide whether they want out of the USA."

Aur, remember that period when people were like, "We'll leave if (such and such happens)" and the petitions for Texas to secede? It's like that. Except it happened.

At the same time, I would say that it is more than a little different. For one thing, we already had a war about that, and it was the bloodiest war on US soil (not including the genocide of the Native Americans). (Also, a lot of the deaths had to do with having really really terrible field medicine). However, that was a hundred and fifty years ago. We don't have a cultural memory, let alone a recent one, of wars that could be solved by uniting economically and legally. Western Europe has been at war, off and on, really until late 1940s. Eastern Europe (including Schengen Zone countries) until the 1990s.

I wonder if you could say that (certain) Brits have short memories, in addition to the apparent and awful xenophobia, nationalism, etc, etc, etc.
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 09:02:07 PM »

I do not know whether my opinion or those who support it is representative for the majority of the population. However, most pro-EU people I know do not mind it. Although the wording may be more diplomatic. In general there are two thoughts, the first one that it is a pity that the UK left, the second that it is a blessing.

The latter may seem contradicting, but Britain kept the EU back, forcing it down an unsustainable road of a common market without a common democracy. The first is what Britain sells, or to be more precise: acccess to the common European market, it is in physical form known as The City, in London. The second, the democracy, was against British wishes. Britain does not want to integrate further, which has always been the prime purpose of the EU to end >2000 years of conflict. No wonder that deGaulle blocked Britain twice as he believed their heart was not in it.

However the EU today is as Britain likes it, but as result also has a democracy deficit that needs to be tackled. With the Britains out this means less diluted treaties that are ultimately better for the market and companies than they are for European people, and a larger chance for the deficiency being solved.

Also, with Britain out, the foundation to The City is gone as influence over the common market and access to it are gone. Several other European nations, including The Netherlands and Belgium are interested to help companies move from The City to their own, which will give us jobs and the government money.

Further more, by supporting Scotland, a breakup of the UK not only punishes and serves as example, it also breaks apart a powerblock. Which should be very useful if England one day wants to rejoin the EU. It will have a voice, but no longer as influential as before.
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Myddrun

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 02:59:25 PM »

Darkon, I'm going to be blunt but you ARE talking as if the entire population of Britain voted to leave and we all should shut up and deal with the consequences. Britain wants this, the British want that. That is simply not the case so don't tar us all with the same brush.

Don't forget that the Leave vote only won by 4% aprox. Most of us who voted to stay knew what to ramifications were going to be and what the options are. And yes we still have to deal with the consequences.

"Force you to accept new terms you don't want?" Badly phrased on my part, my bad.  "Us" as in those who voted to remain not "Us" The People. We don't want to leave. Some of us even want futher integration!

I'm going to seriously start paying attention to what Scotland's plans are now because I can see me favoring a move to "North of the Wall". (Pardon the phrase :D )

I wish there had been a third option on the ballot, one which asked wether we wanted more integration with the EU but aht would have just split the vote even further.

"I wonder if you could say that (certain) Brits have short memories, in addition to the apparent and awful xenophobia, nationalism, etc, etc, etc."

YES! Absolutely yes. Seeing stuff that certain right wing groups like "Britain First" post on their facebook page is like reading Nazi propoganda material from the late 30's / early 40's yet they can't seem to see or accept the similarities.

"Not saying that everyone who voted 'Stay' is not utterly p**sed and sad, and many who voted 'Leave' seem to be somewhat remorseful."

Yah, they have been more than a few facepalm moments. the ones that voted in protest against cameron regardless of In or Out. Those who voted Out because they didn't think they would win. Those that didn't know what the EU was and still voted out. Those that said that if they had know what lies they had been told (um.... Politicians?!) would have voted to remain.

Saying that I heard one Remain voter say that he want to remain so that he could visit in son in spain. So stupid exists on both sides......
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 03:03:20 PM by Myddrun »
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 07:31:47 PM »

Darkon, I'm going to be blunt but you ARE talking as if the entire population of Britain voted to leave and we all should shut up and deal with the consequences. Britain wants this, the British want that. That is simply not the case so don't tar us all with the same brush.

That's alright Myddrun, I have no objections to you being more direct. Dutch and all that. ;) It is a far more convenient method of communication than all the 'beating around the bush'-kind. You are right that my use of 'British' is incorrect here, I should have used 'British government' to prevent a different interpretation of what I meant. That said, you have got to admit that as a pro-EU, pro-integration Brit, you are the odd one out.

So far I can tell, the majority of British media are either hostile or indifferent towards the EU, including the BBC, and the general consensus among remain-politicians in the UK appears to be: market, market, market, benefits for us, little burden as possible, no further integration. The 'deal' Cameron got was a dragon of a turd that should never have seen the daylight. And he is supposed to be pro-EU... It is these kind of half-arsed, watered-down constructions that make the EU weak instead of strong.

How large is the group that truly wants further integration (who should all check the UEF IMO)? Because I doubt it is large enough to make a difference. The UK is going Brexit now, and yes that has consequences, and yes that means you will have to deal with it.

And yeah, I hope it results in a fallout that has massive consequences. Not because I dislike British people in general, but because if not, nothing will change for the better. It will hopefully burn away all illusion that outside the EU was a great idea, and will make people think for once. Not only in the UK but also in the EU.

I'm going to seriously start paying attention to what Scotland's plans are now because I can see me favoring a move to "North of the Wall". (Pardon the phrase :D )

It is the most interesting part of Brexit: what will Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar do? All roads but one appear to lead to EU rules applied, but no influence over the rule-making, except for secession and re-applying to the EU.

YES! Absolutely yes. Seeing stuff that certain right wing groups like "Britain First" post on their facebook page is like reading Nazi propoganda material from the late 30's / early 40's yet they can't seem to see or accept the similarities.

Every country has or had fascists at some point. I'm not surprised at all.

Yah, they have been more than a few facepalm moments.

Speaking of facepalm moments, it appears that Boris and Nigel have run off together.
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Aurian

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2016, 10:24:03 PM »

I am really interested to see how it plays out for Ireland and Scotland. And Texas, who always has a petition open for leaving the US.
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Darkon

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Re: "Brexit"
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 11:03:17 AM »

*pokes Mydd*

How's things across the Channel? :elfgirl_grin:
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