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Author Topic: 7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*  (Read 1525 times)

Gordar

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« on: August 03, 2005, 10:53:52 PM »

This post & possibly entire thread will contain spoilers if you haven't read Conclave of shadows yet...So there'll be a lot of blackened text.

Spoiler: show
Somewhere in Exile's return it is mentioned that there are 7 lower levels, or hells (or something like that, I always mix up numbers, it could also have been a total of 7 levels, but that's not of any importance and I'm waaay too lazy to check). Anyway, it's also said that the level our 'heros' live in is the highest possible level, although it is that the level of the gods is a separate level. This however, is an assumption made by mortals. This level of existance is pure goodness, on the contrary, it's more a level of balance between good and evil.

In the next trilogy, the Darkwar Saga, our 'heros' will probably have to confront a species even the Valheru eventually fled from. Although Pug is strong, he has help from Tomas and the Saaur might be a bit harder to bite through than their normal enemies, I doubt they're gonna have much trouble with this level of existance. The name however, suggest there's gonna be a full scale war.

So what do we have now... 2 things that have little to do with eachother. First, the assumption that the level in which Midkemia exists is the highest level (or second highest level) of existance, and second, a nearly unbeatable army that exists on a lower level.

Now here comes my brilliant idea... What if (I don't remember who, the priests of Banath or the Guardians of the Gods) are wrong? What if the entire universe IS balanced. If there are 7 hells, wouldn't it be logical that there were also 7 heavens?
If there are 7 heavens, and they're built in a similar way as the hells, we'll probably find angels on the 5th level of heaven. But what wil we find on the level above that of Midkemia? Maybe (and this is of course pure speculation) we'll find a species or something that can withstand the Dasati & Talnoy...


Anyway, I prolly missed something in the books or misread something, but this is my idea and I'd like to know what you people think of it.
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Great One

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 12:32:09 AM »

Well, from my memory, there are 7 levels. And they are neither described as hells or heavens. And I don't think we'll be seeing any new creations brought in from other levels to tackle the Dasati. We definitely won't be seeing any angels.
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WJW

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2005, 09:57:53 AM »

I agree with Great One, they weren't described as 'hell', just as plains of existance...
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Etora

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 11:37:58 AM »

read chapter 14 of Exile's Return

spoiler ahead
Spoiler: show

"damn him to the 7 lower hells" seems to be a common curse on Midkemia but Samas mentions that this expression is erroneous... kalkin reveals to kaspar that there are 7 planes of existence and mentions the possibility that good is at one extreme and evil at the other.

- the Gods reside on the 1st level
- the Midkemians on the 2nd
- the 3rd level seems to contain creatures similar to those of the 2nd plane such as the Dasati
- the 4th and 5th levels are populated by various demons
- the 6th level is populated by beings such as Dreads
- the 7th level is home to the most alien and powerful beings
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 11:40:17 AM by Etora »
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Great One

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2005, 03:00:05 PM »

You've got confused with the question at hand here. If there were 7 hells and 7 heavens - then we would have 14 different plaines.

"Damn him to the 7 lower hells", is just something people say. How are they to know about the plains of existence? You've misunderstoood what Kalkin said - he states that there are 7 plains, and he only tells Kaspar that on some plains things are evil. But it doesn't mean that some plains are hells and the rest are heavens.
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Nicholas

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2005, 09:08:40 PM »

I agree with the great one,
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Alrin

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 09:13:42 PM »

Quote
read chapter 14 of Exile's Return

spoiler ahead
Spoiler: show

"damn him to the 7 lower hells" seems to be a common curse on Midkemia but Samas mentions that this expression is erroneous... kalkin reveals to kaspar that there are 7 planes of existence and mentions the possibility that good is at one extreme and evil at the other.

- the Gods reside on the 1st level
- the Midkemians on the 2nd
- the 3rd level seems to contain creatures similar to those of the 2nd plane such as the Dasati
- the 4th and 5th levels are populated by various demons
- the 6th level is populated by beings such as Dreads
- the 7th level is home to the most alien and powerful beings

[snapback]40545[/snapback]


Read Chapter 15 of Exile's Return as well

Spoiler: show
- the Midkemians on the 1st level
- the Dasati on the 2nd
- the 3rd level ???
- the 4th and 5th levels are populated by various demons
- the 6th level is populated by beings such as the Dread
- the 7th level is home to the most alien and powerful beings

It's repeatedly stated throughout the book that the Talnoy & the Dasati are creatures of the Second Circle/Level. Not the Third.
- Exile's Return spoiler
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 09:17:44 PM by Alrin »
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spiralx

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2005, 12:51:14 PM »

Feist has already answered this one in the Feistfans FAQ...

Spoiler: show
Can you explain the "circles" of existence in more detail?

From: "Raymond E. Feist"
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:23:54 -0800
Subject: Re: cosmology questions

OK, let me see if I can clarify. 1st of all, the "Seven Circles" are not literal. What it is: Midkemian superstition. By now I would hope some of you would realize that I don't suggest that what my characters believe is "what is." So if some sailor brags on Amos taking them to the Seven Lower Hells and back, that's how that sailor's view of reality is shaped. OK, 1st of all the Dread aren't from the 7th, but rather the 6th Circle. No one knows what's in the 7th, but it's a region of time/space so alien that perhaps even the gods of Midkemia couldn't survive there. The 6th Circle is the Dread, the nastiest of all the "children of the void." The touch of their foot upon the grass drains life from it. They are "energy black holes" when they're in the Midkemia frame of reference. The 5th Circle is the demons you've met in the last three books. They are less destructive by mere presence, but they do nasty things to the enviornment, tending to eat everything they find before them. They do have the ability to suck down "mind" or "soul" as opposed to merely eating it. The 4th Circle is a plane much like the 5th, but beings that we might consider "sort of normal" exist there. A human might survive for a while in that envronment, but he would have to carry provisions. The 3rd Circle is a less hostile, but far from forgiving. A human might eke out an existence but with a great deal or work. The energy states there are lower than on Midkemia, so magic is weak. The world where Gamina was captured in BaK is this type of world. Pug had to find "mana" in solid form to use it. The 2nd Circle is very much like Midkemia, save it's inhabited by lots of critters who subsist on energy, what we might think of as wraiths, specters, ghosts, etc. It's also something of a way station for those making the run from life to afterlife. The 1st Circle is one step away from Midkemia, save it's far more chaotic in it's structure. Midkemia would be at "zero." Also, there are "heavens," too, which if you haven't guest are the same places, but seen through a different filter. Always remember, while it's easy to discuss such things in game terms, the fact is these are fantastic places with often extend beyond human senses and ability to understand.
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Zyxthior

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2005, 03:21:44 PM »

Well then....seems we've got a bit of a contradiction between the FAQ (from 1997) and what we're seeing in the story....
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Boldar Blood

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 01:18:23 AM »

Quote
Well then....seems we've got a bit of a contradiction between the FAQ (from 1997) and what we're seeing in the story....
[snapback]43149[/snapback]


I am of this opinion as well.  There is many references throughout the last book stateing how deadly are the creatures from the second circle.

Apparently Ray's veiw on the circles has changed in 8 years.
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Suli Abul

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 09:11:12 AM »

How couldn't they change? Honestly.
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The Woodcutter

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2005, 03:12:53 PM »

In yesterdays feistfan email, Ray again addresses the 7 lower hells issue.  Its brief and basic, but is pretty clear.
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coeshaw

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2005, 12:24:01 AM »

Below is what Ray said on the 7 Layers of hell.

Spoiler: show
Midkemia and the other "normal" realms, i.e. Kelwan, the worlds  
attached to the Hall of Worlds, and Earth (if it existed in that  
cosmology, but it doesn't) are all at "zero," i.e. they are the point  
of reference.  The seven "hells" and the seven "heavens" are all seen  
as moving away from that center point.  The father away you are, on  
either side, the more difficult it is to exist on other levels.  So,  
a creature from the first circle of heaven or hell could get by for a  
time on Midkemia, for a very long time if it had magic, but a  
creature from the highest or lowest circle is going to vanish in  
minutes, leaving behind a great deal of damage, if no magic keeps it  
safe.
General Spoilers, no details
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Lady Mara of the Acoma

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7 'hells' and no 7 'heavens'??? *Spoilers ahead*
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2005, 04:42:43 AM »

I'd rather put this question as a spoiler, you never know !  :D

Spoiler: show

Did Ray ever say that he took his circles from Dante Allighieri's HELL?
Cause he DID, and surely not unvoluntarily and it may help to understand the "thing" better !


Mara.
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