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Author Topic: Drow/Dasati comparison  (Read 1640 times)

Jestersinthemoon

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Drow/Dasati comparison
« on: July 13, 2008, 07:21:12 PM »

Has anyone ever noticed the distinct similarity between the Dasati and the Drow Elf culture that provides the initial backdrop to R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt books?

I had stopped reading this omnibus ( Homeland, Exile, Sojourn ), as I wasn't enjoying it that much after the first 100 pages or so. So, I went and returned it to the bookstore. Its the Collector's Edition Hardcover, not a softcover that would have creases in the spine from me reading a small bit. Just as an aside, this is a beautiful book, and if you like the author or think you will, this book looks great on the shelf. I, personally, hate fantasy books with cheesy/childish/ridiculous, embarassing cover art. Many people don't realize that there is intelligent, adult Fantasy books, thinking that they are only for tweens and overgrown 35 yr old self-proclaimed Dungeonmasters still living in their parents. So, I always like it when a book actually looks like legitimate adult fare. The dust jacket on this one is great and looks WAY better than the goofy Trade Paperback omnibus with the 3 Drow with swords drawn on the front.......not to mention the fact that this book is also really stunning without the dust jacket on. Anyway, so I returned the book and started reading A Shadow in Summer by Daniel Abraham, but wasn't in the mood for it. Then I started The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, but while I was enjoying it, wasn't in the mood for it either........especially after the first 53 pages came loose from the binding in about 6 pieces. Is anyone else having an issue lately with shoddy paperbacks that fall apart when you read them. I've actually had that issue with MANY of my Raymond E. Feist books. Anyway, I found out that Barnes and Noble will happily trade a new book for any copy that has pages coming loose from the bindings. I wish I had known this, or attempted to find this out, sooner, as I have at least 5 REF books being held together by, among other things, tape, superglue, hot glue gun glue, and sheer will. I hate reading a book that is falling apart like that. Anyway, when I went to get my new copy of TNoTW, I decided that I would give Drizzt another chance and that although I wasn't yet enamored by the story ( I think I most dislike the society and magic, in general, like everyone being able to levitate whenever they want ) I did decide that I was interested in what happened to Drizzt in the future. I'm now on page 145 of Homeland and things are getting slightly better. I'm expecting much more once Drizzt actually leaves Menzoberranzan.

So, back to my point........Has anyone noticed the very distinct similarities between the cold, heartless, and aggressive cultures of the Drow and the Dasati.

Here's the quote about the Drow that got me thinking:

"They live with the belief that anything is acceptable if you can get away with it, that self-gratification is the most important aspect of existence, and that power only comes to she or he is strong enough or cunning enough to snatch it from the failing hands of those who no longer deserve it. Compassion has no place in Menzoberranzan."

That quote could have come straight from the mouth of any one of the Dasati. I think there are quite a few similarities. Anyone else?

Jester
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vega1

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 07:42:38 PM »

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Is anyone else having an issue lately with shoddy paperbacks that fall apart when you read them

Yes!  :irritated: All my conclave and especially the Darkwar paperbacks came apart while I was reading them, and I'm not that hard on books.

I haven't read the Drizzt trilogy yet, although its on my shelf (the cheesy one you mention, not the new cool looking one). That does sound like the Dasati way though. Although with the Dasati its more. Its not so much a spoken outlook on life as it is their nature. Its not even about power for them, its their everyday duty to cull the weak, and if they aren't strong enough to defend themselves they don't deserve a second thought. Maybe I'm just more impressed with the Dasati since I have read Darkwar but not the drow books yet.
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Great One

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 11:11:34 PM »

I wouldn't be certain, as I've not read anything containing Drows. However, I ran the Wiki page, read through it and noticed a similarity. In particular, when I read this statement:
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Drow society is based upon violence, murder, cunning, and the philosophy that only the strong survive


Very Dasati-like. Though they are both evil by nature, so there's not much you could do to differentiate the two. I would say the Dasati are more evil, though, deep down.
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 12:41:16 AM »

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Then I started The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, but while I was enjoying it, wasn't in the mood for it either........especially after the first 53 pages came loose from the binding in about 6 pieces.

I got the hardcover from the library and in an incident where it took a fall (with a few flips along the way) it came apart from the spine. Most books can take more punishment than that. Wasn't my copy though, not that I would by that book in hardcover.

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Very Dasati-like. Though they are both evil by nature, so there's not much you could do to differentiate the two. I would say the Dasati are more evil, though, deep down.

I have never read about the Dasati, but then you've never read about the Drow, so you can't really compare the statements, especially from a wiki article. The Drow are not good and it can be argued that they have no good in them. Of course there are always the outliers like Drizzt and Zaknafein, but they are few and far between. The Drow are a xenophobic society that hates all other races, considering those below them (a great number) to be akin to shit and showing those above them (very, very few) the respect they deserve. They have no problem eradicating their Underdark neighbors and consider killing children (even of their own race) to be praiseworthy. One large aspect of the Drow society is House warfare, in which one House is always annihilated. Add to this willful desire to slay their own family (or worse, if you know what a Drider is) and I don't know just how the Dasati could be worse...

I mean, what the hell? Do they rape the kids before they kill them? I mean, it is not like the Drow are just pretending to be evil and turn into hippies spouting peace and love nonsense when no one is looking.

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Just as an aside, this is a beautiful book, and if you like the author or think you will, this book looks great on the shelf.

Yes, it is. I got it when it was released as my other copy (the one with the three drow) was lent out and never seen again. It is a beautiful cover and a beautiful book. Takes much resistance to keep myself from dog-earing the pages while reading like I usually do.

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I think I most dislike the society and magic, in general, like everyone being able to levitate whenever they want

I do believe it is just the nobles, actually, and it is granted by the house symbol. Of course, since you mostly only meet nobles, it would seem that way. But, yeah, the magic really isn't all that special. In fact, it is not special at all, as it is Dungeons and Dragons based.The good thing about Bob is that he really doesn't use a lot of magic in his books, nor does he really ascribe to the whole RPG system when it comes to his writing. The Dark Elf Trilogy has quite a bit of magic in the first book, but that is just how that society is.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 12:47:29 AM by James »
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Great One

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 02:49:11 AM »

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Very Dasati-like. Though they are both evil by nature, so there's not much you could do to differentiate the two. I would say the Dasati are more evil, though, deep down.

I have never read about the Dasati, but then you've never read about the Drow, so you can't really compare the statements, especially from a wiki article. The Drow are not good and it can be argued that they have no good in them. Of course there are always the outliers like Drizzt and Zaknafein, but they are few and far between. The Drow are a xenophobic society that hates all other races, considering those below them (a great number) to be akin to shit and showing those above them (very, very few) the respect they deserve. They have no problem eradicating their Underdark neighbors and consider killing children (even of their own race) to be praiseworthy. One large aspect of the Drow society is House warfare, in which one House is always annihilated. Add to this willful desire to slay their own family (or worse, if you know what a Drider is) and I don't know just how the Dasati could be worse...

I mean, what the hell? Do they rape the kids before they kill them? I mean, it is not like the Drow are just pretending to be evil and turn into hippies spouting peace and love nonsense when no one is looking.


I wasn't comparing statements. I was just taking that one sentence, and using it as a basis for saying the two are alike. You've just strengthened this fact by going into more detail about the Drow, which a few of us are unfamiliar with. Taking what you've said into consideration, and what I already know about the Dasati, I'd say the two are very much the same.

Not sure where you went with the second part. You can't question the Dasati's evil, if that's what you're doing. Or why they are the way they are.
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 06:08:19 AM »

No, I am questioning how you can get this:

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I would say the Dasati are more evil, though, deep down.
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Alrin

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 08:08:11 AM »

I have never read about the Dasati
So you probably should've just stopped there. I'm not denying you the right to your opinion, James. Simply pointing out that it's uninformed (or unformed, if you prefer). Your zealous affirmation of the evil of the Drow only supported the question posed by Jester. You describe the Drow as a xenophobic society that hates other races - the Dasati encountered in the darkwar share similar views, being sickened by the mere presence of Pug and his companions and having to battle their own desire to slaughter their 'lesser' guests. You talk about the Drow eradication of their own children - hunts are conducted by the Dasati in which the single goal is to uncover the dwellings of women and children and put them all to the sword. In fact, just about every aspect of Drow culture you point to is directly paralleled by Dasati society.

As to the 'it can be argued they have no good in them' remark, that's certainly arguable, indeed (especially given the fact that the Drow have a living goddess of good alignment, in Eilistraee. The Dasati have lacked such since the banishment of their own gods and the rise to dominance of the Dark One).

Trace the Drow origins back far enough (at least in the Forgotten Realms setting, which I know are the Drow you're familiar with, James) and you'll learn that they were simply a tribe of elves. They were neither good nor evil, they just were. It was after the atrocities committed during the Crown Wars (namely the use of fire as a weapon) that the Ilythiir were branded Drow and eventually banished to the Underdark.

Similarly, trace back the Dasati origins far enough and you have a race not unlike the Ipiliac (a name I realise has no meaning to you). They were neither good nor evil. They just were. Then the Dark God twisted them into the evil race we come to encounter in the books. Over countless years their society is twisted and warped, until, yes, it resembles Drow culture.


As to my opinion of the initial question: yes, there's certainly similarities. Both are (now) intrinsically evil races with warped, self-destructing cultures. Both delight in torment and suffering. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Dasati society is directly based upon the Drow. Ray certainly had no qualms about borrowing heavily from Tolkien when describing his own elves, so he may well have used the Drow as a template for his Dasati.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 08:42:09 AM by Alrin »
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Great One

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 08:17:58 AM »

Just my opinion, Jamesy. It's heavily influenced by the Dasati culture, and unfamiliar with the Drow one. So, of course, I'm going to believe the Dasati are more evil. Though I don't like saying anyone/anything is 'more' evil than something else, and probably shouldn't of. Best ignoring that little sentence.  :lol:
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 08:55:03 AM »

Alrin:

My post wasn't supposed to answer the question or zealously affirm how evil the Drow are, neither was it there to try and prove some point about the Drow being anymore evil than the Dasati. The post was commentary on the one sentence by Joe: "I would say the Dasati are more evil, though, deep down".

Just as I have never read about the Dasati, Joe has never read about the Drow. However, I did not throw out an opinion (other than the mocking: "I just don't know how the Dasati could be worse...") about who was the greater or lesser evil.

Lord knows, I have no great love for the Drow, I am not going to stand behind them and proclaim that they are evil incarnate and no literary race could ever hope to match them in their wicked ways.
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Alrin

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 09:01:30 AM »

I misread your intention then, for it did indeed seem you sought to cement the Drow as the more depraved of the two cultures. I admit, I overlooked Joe's own remarks when addressing your own, and can only attribute my oversight to the fact that you went into greater detail and thus drew eyes to your post (since I tend to skim tiny posts these days and instead focus on posts that actually have something to say).

Anyway, apologies if my own remarks seemed denigratory in any way, for that was not my intent.
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 09:05:33 AM »

No problem. It is what I get for making such long posts these days.
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Jestersinthemoon

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 10:01:27 PM »

Honestly, between the two, if someone wanted my opinion, I would have to say that the Dasati were more evil. At least the Drow have some semblance of a familial unit, even if the women beat the men whenever they feel like it. The Dasati men instantly kill any woman or child that they see.

After finishing Homeland, I see even more similarities.

Both see death at their training schools as an acceptable loss. Both try to eradicate other families to gain power. The Dasati Deathpriests perform their evil rituals casting Lessers into the maw of the Dark God......and while not quite the same, the Drow graduation ceremony where a demon comes up and has sex with the High Priestess while the surrounding males all have sex with the other women clerics is quite depraved as well. In fact, I thought the scene was VERY similar to the one in which......
Spoiler:  • show
Valko boils his brother in a pot at his Mother's suggestion and it turns on the women so much that they start rubbing their hands all over themselves and then all of the men just start grabbing the women to get freaky because in Dasati culture, apparently bloodlust and sexual lust are almost indescriminate.


Anyway, someone did catch on to my point. It seems to me that REF was very liberal with the things that be borrowed from the Drow culture. Now, thats not to say thats a bad thing. I was very impressed, as I always am, when an author creates an entire society which I find facinating, without being cheesy and overblown. I didn't think I was going to like the portions of IaDR or WoaMG that took place on the Dasati worlds, but I really did.

Anyhow, making my way through Exile now. I did begin to enjoy Homeland a little bit more towards the end. I'd never call it GREAT, but its satisfying.

My big decision is going to be what to read next.

In fact, I'm about to hijack this thread, so I apologize. Just to be courteous, though, if you do want to answer this question, please PM me.

Here is what I currently have to read after I finish Exile an Soujourn. If you were me, what order would you read these books in.........

1. The Prince of Nothing - ( The Darkness That Comes Before, The Warrior Prophet, The Thousandfold Thought ) -- R. Scott Bakker

2. A Song of Ice and Fire ( Books 1-4 ) - George R. R. Martin

3. Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone ( Books 1-4 ) Greg Keyes

4. A Malazan Book of the Fallen ( Gardens of the Moon up through Reaper's Gale ) - Steven Erikson

5. The First Law Trilogy ( I have The Blade Itself and Before They Are Hanged, and I've preordered The Last Arguement of Kings ) - Joe Abercrombie

6. The Gentleman Bastards ( I have The Lies of Locke Lamora and have preordered Red Seas Under Red Skies ) - Scott Lynch

7. The Lon Tobyn Chronicles ( Children of Amarid, The Outlanders, and Eagle Sage ) David B. Coe

8. The Codex Alera ( Furies of Calderon, Academ's Fury, Cursor's Fury, Captain's Fury ) Jim Butcher

9. The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss ( I don't know when The Wise Man's Fear is being released )

10. The Empire Trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurtz

11. Chronicles of the Black Company ( Omnibus ) and The Books of the South ( Omnibus ) by Glen Cook

12. Acacia: The War With the Mein by David Anthony Durham ( This came highly recommended )

13. The Long Price Quartet ( A Shadow in Summer and A Betrayal in Winter.....not sure when An Autumn War comes out ) - Daniel Abraham


OK, so I have a lot of stuff to read. I really hate to read an unfinished series, but I've decided that I've just going to have to deal with it if I'm going to start reading fantasy again. It just comes with the territory. Sooooo, yeah, I've got a lot of reading in my future and I seem to keep buying books every week. What order would you read all of these in? From what everyone is telling me, I've got some great reading to look forward to. I just need to figure out and order that will make me happy. Suggestions, and why?

Jester
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 11:27:12 PM »

I could PM, but I am not going to, mostly because I hate PM'ing and everyone should know the following information anyway.

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1. The Prince of Nothing - ( The Darkness That Comes Before, The Warrior Prophet, The Thousandfold Thought ) -- R. Scott Bakker

While I highly recommend it, I would consider this one of the fantasy genre's more advanced novels. Both in accessibility and in graphic content. I don't suggest reading this until you have given Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire a shot. Even that series seems rather tame in comparison, but it gives a proper stepping stone into it.

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12. Acacia: The War With the Mein by David Anthony Durham ( This came highly recommended )

This is one book that I cannot recommend highly enough to stay as far away as possible from. I had the luck and misfortune of getting the ARC before it was initially released, luck because it was free, misfortune because I read it. I renamed it in another thread and I think it still describes the book accurately: David Anthony Durham's Tome of Illogical Happenings, Book One: Infodumping and Lack o'Dialogue.
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vega1

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 01:54:52 PM »

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I'm about to hijack this thread,

Whats the rule on hijacking your own thread? I think its OK as long as you apologize to yourself. :smile:

I would start with #2, I found those books to be highly enjoyable.

Alternately, I'm reading The Empire Trilogy now just to get all the Feist over and done with, I about 2/3 through the first book and like it so far.
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Jestersinthemoon

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 03:07:44 PM »

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12. Acacia: The War With the Mein by David Anthony Durham ( This came highly recommended )

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This is one book that I cannot recommend highly enough to stay as far away as possible from. I had the luck and misfortune of getting the ARC before it was initially released, luck because it was free, misfortune because I read it. I renamed it in another thread and I think it still describes the book accurately: David Anthony Durham's Tome of Illogical Happenings, Book One: Infodumping and Lack o'Dialogue.

James, I have no difficulty believing, from your description, that you seriously disliked this novel. Thats one of the strangest things about books, and in my meager experience, its even more prominent with this particular genre ( including Fantasy, Sci-Fi, New Weird, Alt Hist, etc. ) With the exception of very few books/series, you're always going to find extremely divergent opinions regarding the quality of a novel. You haven't steered me wrong so far, James, and I'll definitely take your opinion into consideration. On the other hand, I've read 3 very good reviews and 2 GLOWING reviews of this book, written by people whose opinions I also value. In addition, I've had two friends tell me that they really loved it. Now, don't get me wrong, you aren't the first person to tell me that you hated it. In fact, when I ordered it at Barnes and Noble, within 24 hours, I had several people tell me it was horrible, ( this was before I read and heard the praise ) so I canceled the order. Apparently they ordered it anyway and put it on the shelf, so when I saw it I decided that I would just give it a try. Thats why I always keep receipts for BnN, especially for hardbacks, so if I hate the book, I can return it for a store credit, which always comes in handy. Of course, lately I've been drawn in by Amazon. I found a Brand Spankin New hardback copy of a book I really wanted today for $1.35 plus $3.99 shipping. You can't beat that with a Dwarven Warhammer. Also, I can buy copies of books like A Dance With Dragons and Last Arguement of Kings from Amazon.co or Amazon.uk for nearly the same price as I'll pay at a bookstore here, just 12 months later.

Anyway, I didn't intend to read Acacia anytime soon, although it might be a good idea to try it next, so if I do hate it, I can return it promptly. As an aside, I don't want people to get the wrong impression of me because I keep saying that I return partially read books to the bookstore. I think that fantasy is one of the worst areas of the store when it comes to finding paperback books with hundreds of spine creases from beginning to end either from people returning books or people sitting in the store reading an entire book. I NEVER return paperback books unless they are brand new and unopened, usually gifts from family members that I have no desire to read or books that I initially thought I wanted to read, but changed my mind with more info while they sat, unopened on my bookshelf. When I buy hardback books I always take meticulous care of them while reading the first 50-100 pages, so that if I do decide that I absolutely hate the book, I can return it without any guilt. Just wanted to clear that up.

Thanks for the advice, though. I'm normally not an organized/list type of person, except with my books. I need to sit down and figure out what order I intend to read these books in. I know it may be confusing to some of you, who just say "read the damn things", but for some reason I have to balance out exciting books with slower books, long series with individual books or trilogies, deep/in depth books with lighter fare, and great books with the mediocre-plus ( I don't read anything that I find to be average or less ) It all has to balance out. Thats why I had such a hard time finding something after I finished Wrath of a Mad God. Even with the drop in quality over the last 5 or so books, I still loved Feist, so it was hard to get into a new world with new characters. So, hopefully I can figure out the best order to read all of these in.

Jester
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vega1

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 03:25:18 PM »

So what order did you go in?

You did start with the GRRM books right?  :smile:

As a side note I just ordered and received the Black Company omnibus' you reference in #11. The overall presentation of these books (the heft, production quality, and cover art) was enough to move them to near the top of my queue. I can't wait to give them a go.
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James

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Re: Drow/Dasati comparison
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 06:40:47 PM »

Good choice, Vega. I decided to pick that one up last winter when I happened upon a book store for the first time in forever. I only managed to read the first two books, this is mostly because at the time I had a big problem with first person perspectives (it really doesn't bother me anymore). I had read the first two back to back, but decided I needed a break from the series after two books written in that perspective. I just haven't gotten around to finishing the three, though I need to at some point, most likely after a reread of the wonderful first two (which tempts me whenever I see the book). It was the art that forced me into the purchase, I have to admit. The Black Company was on my list for a long time at Amazon, but I never bothered actually ordering it, always had something else to buy first. The art, and the fact that all three books were there, changed that. By the way, in case you were wondering and did not know, the artist's name is Raymond Swanland and he does some pretty good work.
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