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Author Topic: Fall of the ConDoin Line  (Read 4320 times)

ultimate_ed

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« on: October 20, 2004, 01:39:33 PM »

Alright, time for some real Feist world discussion, so here's something to chew on.

Why is it, after the ConDoin line produced men like Arutha, Borric, Martin, and Nicholas, have the latest of this line produced such ordinary and somewhat base men as Patrick, and, too some degree, Ryan?

Discounting the whole "Feist wrote them that way" business, I'm especially curious about Patrick.  Since coming of age in the Serpentwar, I would have thought he would have been better prepared with the world he faced.  Or, do you think that the war caused his education/preparation to be short changed in favor of the immediate survival of the Kingdom?

We dont' get to see much of Ryan (No Exile's Return for me yet, so I can't comment there), but he has struck me so far as a pretty unremarkable man.

So, what happend to those ConDoin boys?
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Sephiroth

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2004, 01:49:49 PM »

Well feist did write them that way and since they arent real it hard to discuss.

But i guess that sometimes you get a remarkable few generations and then come to some what less remarkable.

Its like having a famous basketball player, then his son went on to play basketball, but then his son wasnt so good at it...i guess

Ryan isnt in Exiles Return.
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Magnus

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2004, 02:03:10 PM »

You also have to remember that Raymond's Books arent mainly about Prince's and King's he has alot more Character's to write abou rather than Prince's and King's!!
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Sephiroth

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2004, 02:21:13 PM »

isnt magnus technically a ConDoin?
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coeshaw

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2004, 02:55:06 PM »

Yeah Magnus is still technically a ConDoin  :elf_smile:

I guess the traditions of greatness are not genetic and are thus not guarnteed to be passed down from parent to child. For all we know Ryan could have a child who will be even more heroic than Arutha  :lol:
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Ashen Shugar

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2004, 03:38:16 PM »

it's because they were court raised like rodric, when arutha, lyam, martin, nicholas, borric, erland came to power they had all been through wars or other ordeals while patrick had a sheltered life same as rodric, they were never out on the field. and feist wrote them that way.
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Ellia

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2004, 04:39:11 PM »

I agree with ash that the earlier generation had the tough training of the Riftwar and all the other battles with the goblins and moredhel.

Spoiler: show
One thing mentioned about Patrick was that he wanted to be just as great as his grandfather, which was why he wanted to keep the whole Western Realm intact during the Serpentwar. He was still young, which was why he made all those rash decisions and acted pretty stupid. He Did have some seasoning with the Border Barons in the north, but he never had to make a decision where people depended on it too much. So he lacks experience. There might even be that lack of great intelligence like Arutha, but nothing too much of a difference. If they were raised the same, I'm sure their outcome of greatness would not have been far too off.
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Lord Llewdak

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2004, 10:58:53 PM »

I think it is highly unrealistic that just because they bear the name 'conDoin' then they are destined to be good men to do great deeds and be in stories of great valour and courage. I think not. Men are men, fullstop. Royalty is no different.
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Spuduka

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2004, 11:16:34 PM »

Look at this way , through out Europe there have been heroic Kings and rulers , there have been some who were villans and there have pretty ordanary ones so I think Ray is just doing the same with the ConDoin line. I could be wrong thouh. :elf_smile:
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Aruthas_Loyal_Servant

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2004, 01:19:59 AM »

Maybe its just like sports teams. They have ordinary players etc until for one or two seasons the team just sparkles, it could be down to a new manager or new players, or it could just be fate...

With such great people like Arutha, Liam et al showing up at once its going to be bloody hard to match that generation after generation...
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ultimate_ed

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2004, 04:10:55 AM »

Well, good to see this thread generated some interest.  I thought things were getting a bit boring in this section.

I think I can go with Ashen Shugar's notion that Patrick was raised in a more sheltered life and not hardened as his ancestor's were.  I suppose there's two basic ways that your life's experience can effect how you raise your own children 1. You make them go through what you went through in the hopes of forging them stronger or, 2. You shelter them so they don't have to suffer what you did.  Certainly how you judge yourself to have ended up as a result of your experience will influence your view.

While it was certainly inevitable that the generations of ConDoin would have to stumble at some point, I guess I was just a bit disturbed at how big a fall the Kingdom took going to Patrick.  Sure, he was young and that offers some explanation, but he was also surrounded by some great men as advisors.

Ultimately, any thread or topic we talk about can be reduced to "because that's the way Ray wrote it", but then there'd be no point to having a discussion forum, which is why I tried to head it off.  I appreciate everyone's contributions and some most interesting insights.

I'll have to see what other topics I can think of to stir up some discussion.
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Ashen Shugar

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2004, 07:55:55 AM »

but he was also surrounded by some great men as advisors.

the people patrick had advising him weren't nearly as good as aruthas friends.

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Masaan

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2004, 08:19:16 AM »

Two things: I have to agree withen Ashen Shugar that Arutha, martin, etc. grew up through wars and the likes. You also have to remember that while patrick grew up the kingdom had a time of relative peace (i haven't read POB & KB yet so.....)

Secondly, i've just been re-reading the Serpentwar saga and Nakor raised the issue of is it coincidence that so many great men came along at the time they were neaded ie. Arutha, Jimmy, Pug's training, Tomas's powers, Calis and many other great men i can't think of right now. you could probably take this in a number of ways but maybe it was the gods will to have great men around in the time of need and the side effect was that the next generation would lack many of the skills of their predecessors. Finally, it was also mentioned by Duke Arutha and Little Jimmy  :elf_smile: the pressure that their generation(s) felt growing up in the shadow of their namesakes and former legends of the kingdom.

I hope this adds something valuable because i really didn't want to go down the whole 'because ray wanted it that way' path
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Sephiroth

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2004, 08:35:02 AM »

Quote
I hope this adds something valuable because i really didn't want to go down the whole 'because ray wanted it that way' path
[snapback]9138[/snapback]

but in the end thats what it is.

You cannot argue and talk about something that isnt real and hasnt actually happened.

but since we are  :smile: sounds like they all thrive under pressure.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 08:35:31 AM by Sephiroth »
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Sephiroth

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2004, 08:38:42 AM »

Spoiler: show
since the world is in danger for his next series (darkwar series) there should be a mention of the kingdom, so you will see how the new ConDoin's go.
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Knight-Marshal Gerry

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 08:52:05 AM »

pppttff Stuff Princes and Kings, i say bring back Amos Trask

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Nylaere

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2004, 08:56:37 AM »

Maybe you should think of it this way: How would it be if both Patrick and Ryan would have been like the rest of the ConDoin's? I've been thinking about it, and I like the books way better if they just are how they are. Not because Ray wanted it that way, but because it suits the image I have in my head better this way.
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henwas

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2004, 11:09:11 AM »

Put simply...

Because the recent ConDoins have come into power sheltered, where the others came to power weathered
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Thant

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2004, 10:08:39 PM »

Ok, I need some help here. Patrick was in the Serpent war saga, right? What was he again? I cant remember him there :(.

 :scout:
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coeshaw

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Fall of the ConDoin Line
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2004, 11:07:41 PM »

Serpantwar Spoiler
Spoiler: show
Prince Patrick was the son of Borric the king of the Isles. He was sent by his father to help manage the war in the west against the Emerld Queens army, needless to say he eventually p**sed off most of this staff especially Pug. He seemed head strong and prideful, though lacking experience
Thats about all I can remember.
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