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Author Topic: Lower Levels of Hell Theology  (Read 2420 times)

Pugs First Apprentice

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Lower Levels of Hell Theology
« on: November 06, 2004, 09:43:19 AM »

I asked this question in the Exile Return Thread but it either got missed or ignored so i thought i would bring it up in an entire new thread as part of a bundle of questions.

We get a fantastic insight into the Lower Levels of Hell in Exiles Return (ExR). My first question is whether there are gods in these lower levels. We are told that they follow different rules in these levels so is it possible that they dont have gods?? I remember from RoaDK that Jakan had thoughts of being a god. So he must have known what a god was. Does this indicate there are gods in these realms?

Following on from this i pose a question about good and evil and perspective. There might be a few ExR spoilers in here so im going to white it out, but they arnt to spoilish ;) [span style=\'color:white\'] Kaspar and the Keepers and the God of Thieves (forget his name already  :elf_gloop: ) have a great discussion about the nature of good and evil and how the people of the Second level consider the two natures differently. If there are gods in the second level and the rest of the levels, would their aspects or alignments be viewed differently. For example would the people of the Dasturi or whatever they are called consider a god of similar alignment to Arch Inchar, the goddess of good and purity, an "evil god".???[/span]

The answer to such a question would raise about the level of reality that Medkemia exists in. For if Gods such as the Goddess of Good were considered "evil" in all other levels then the first level of reality is in fact against the status quo and is pretty much against it in terms of the fight between "good" and "evil".



OK so there a few questions in there. Hoping you guys and girls with your feist minds can provide an insight into the answers.
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Zaltais

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Lower Levels of Hell Theology
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2004, 07:02:12 PM »

Awesome thread... Interesting theory too... I sat and pondered it myself for a little...

The way I'd picture it, and knowing Feist used to be a gamer.. I'd fall more to the side that, each level know's of the god's, and they're either worshipped in various ways, or alternatively, not worshipped at all.

I think what he attempted to get at in the book is that, the race mentioned from the 2nd level, believe their "ways" to be good and proper, however, they might still worship an evil god that represents this aspect, they just don't consider the god evil as their "ways" aren't evil.

As they say, two men on a battlefield find each other to be evil, and their own cause good.
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Pugs First Apprentice

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Lower Levels of Hell Theology
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2004, 02:06:21 AM »

Quote from: Zaltais,Nov 6 2004, 06:02 PM
Awesome thread... Interesting theory too... I sat and pondered it myself for a little...

The way I'd picture it, and knowing Feist used to be a gamer.. I'd fall more to the side that, each level know's of the god's, and they're either worshipped in various ways, or alternatively, not worshipped at all.[/b]


So do the Gods transend realities? For example if you take the view of the Novindus Temples and say that all gods are but a facet of the same one Ultimate God, does this Ultimate God rule in all the Levels or is heavenly arrangment different in each reality?


I think what he attempted to get at in the book is that, the race mentioned from the 2nd level, believe their "ways" to be good and proper, however, they might still worship an evil god that represents this aspect, they just don't consider the god evil as their "ways" aren't evil.

Exactly my thought. So the God that they would worship as "good" would infact be considered evil in the First Level. Perhaps this is another reason why the Namless one is so powerful...if there is infact one Ultimate God, and it transendes realities, then the Nameless One would derive greater power from 6 out of the 7 realities. Just a thought. Mind you i am not of the belief that one Ultimate God exists in all realities, nor am i of the beliefe that the Gods of Medkemia are but facets of one Ultimate God. But it is a possible explanation behind the strength of the Namless One beyond the simple explanation that destruction is inherently more powerful then creation, a view point that i dont believe in.


As they say, two men on a battlefield find each other to be evil, and their own cause good.


I like that quote  :smile:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2004, 02:09:16 AM by Pugs First Apprentice »
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Suli Abul

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Lower Levels of Hell Theology
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2004, 07:46:23 AM »

So instead of ruling the universe/'s, Nalar infact wants to rule the Levels, therefore actually ruling the universe/'s. Because they would all have to be in one of the seven levels when you think about it.
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Pugs First Apprentice

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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2004, 09:24:34 AM »

Hmm except i dont think Nalar, or the aspect of the Ultimate that is Nalar has any goal of ruling the universe. He is simply a god whose nature is to destroy, not to rule. On Medkemia his "evil" nature was manifested by those influenced by him attempting plots to destroy all life on the planet. I dont think the Namless One has any goals of ruling the universe.

But in your post you bring up a point which i havnt exactly got my head around Suli (Though t has been described twice or thrice now i think). Where do the Levels of Hell fit in the universe? Are they different realities within this universe?
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Ashen Shugar

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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2004, 09:34:22 AM »

maybe they have similar gods or the same but look at them in a different light, like in midkemia most people look to lims kragma as evil so they stay away from her temple and fear her, for the other dudes it might be the other way around, like they might make signs of protection when someone mentions sung. just a thought, I get one of those every now and then
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Poper

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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2004, 09:35:32 AM »

popular planar cosmology goes along the lines that levelled dimensions run adjacent to each other and yet also overlap (yeah kinda what you might imagine to be an alternate reality) so to speak. It would more be along the lines of "hell" being a seperate dimension with layers. Each layer is no doubt infinite, such as our material plane is, though each is seperate fromt he others.
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Pugs First Apprentice

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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2004, 10:18:12 AM »

Please to be explaining that post in a tad more detail popes! I got a bit lost.

Thats exactly the point Ash. The virtues of good and evil are all but a matter of perspective. Thats part of the reason why i want to understand the heavenly arrangment in these Lower Levels of Hell.
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Ashen Shugar

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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2004, 10:26:33 AM »

to be honest dude I doubt Ray has put that much thought into this.
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Tal

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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2004, 10:30:43 AM »

Well I believe that, as Macros said, the rules in the lower circles have like, totally different rules and that if so, there are probably different ideas of good and evil
Spoiler: show
For example, the Dasati had gods, they would most likely have a god representing their perverted (to us, anyway) sense of humour (their love of watching death) as a "good" god, and perhaps even have a god representing something similar to our system considered as a "bad" god.


that's my thoughts.
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Pugs First Apprentice

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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2004, 10:56:34 AM »

Quote
to be honest dude I doubt Ray has put that much thought into this.
[snapback]11466[/snapback]


I disagree. In the last two major series, the Serpant War and the Conclave, creatures from the Lower Levels have featured majorly. Also, in both series we get a couple of insights into how the Lower Levels exist and how they differ to Medkemian reality. Plus i think Ray is the type of writer/creator of worlds that would put alot of thought into such issues, especially if one or more of his series are going to be concerned majorly with beings from teh Lower Levels.
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Poper

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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2004, 12:25:57 PM »

k.

get your tissues ready cos you're gonna cry.

i'm gonna try to explain my beliefs about planar theology.

TO figure out our own answers to these questions we need to first ask "What is a Plane?"

I have read, and I believe that the planes of existence are different realities with interwoven connections. Except for vary rare natural linking points, each plane is effectively its own universe with it's own natural laws.

I could go on to explain the main beliefs behind all of the theorised types of plane (material, transitive, inner, and outer) but I won't because I'm likely to get bored with writing this :P I will instead skip to the type of plane the hell dimensions would fit into.

Outer planes are the homes of beings of great power. The deities may choose to live here, as do demons, devils, and angelic creatures. The outer planes tend to represent a particular moral or ethical outlook, and their inhabitants tend to agree with those beliefs.

So the gods (or powerful beings - where do we draw the line, really?) may be different to those known on the material plane (what is thought of as the 'real world') or maybe some are the same. Such powerful places seem logical for a place for a powerful being to reside, or even originate from. If gods can exist in the material plane, why are there so few? If there can be one god, surely there can be an infinite number of gods.

Um, even I am gettinga  little muddled now, so I hope that's explained my brain a little better, I shall stop now before I turn this into a purely real world theological argument (one of my special powers).

J.
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Zaltais

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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2004, 03:58:36 PM »

To add to Feists stuff...

I seem to recall from somewhere (god knows which book), Nalar was sent to a planet, basically "buried" under a mountain, in a universe that the "gods" didn't exist in.

The idea behind this seems to show that the planes are NOT different universes, but just different levels of existance in each universe (another may have 5 levels, or 35, for example).

My theory for that statement is that Nalar appears to not affect anything in the place he's kept, he has to still influence people/things from the universe he is "from".

Also, they do mention that there was a certain number of gods, some of which were destroyed etc...  so the "facets of the one true god", make me think that.. Arch-indar is an Uber god kinda thing... or, simply represents the totallity of all gods, as too many things directly point to each god being a seperate entity.

If Arch-indar IS simply a theological representation of ALL gods, then be could not return until Nalar returns anyways, and other gods, this may also explain the lengthy delay in his existance.
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Zaltais

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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2004, 03:59:10 PM »

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.... lol <sighs> forgive my erratic thinking pattern, to all who read the above.
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calis'sgirl

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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2004, 06:07:11 PM »

what if hell exists in a different time,  like the lifestone, and each different level is in a different time than the one above it.  
just specualing i dont really know what im trying to prove, just that it could happen
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Pugs First Apprentice

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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2004, 11:33:47 PM »

Possibly C G but im thinking time is probably irrelevent. Either that or it isnt different at all. Im basing this purley on the fact that duringthe serpant war, the issues of establishing Rifts between the Demon realm and Shila realm did not have to overcome time constraints, at least we didnt get any POV's saying this was a problem.

Zalt...are yous saying in your erratic way (:tongue:) that you do or dont believe that the gods are but a facet of one UBER god?
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Please believe me when i say, this is how it has to be
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Suli Abul

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Lower Levels of Hell Theology
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2004, 05:28:47 AM »

What if they are not the Seven Lower Levels of Hell, but infact the Seven Levels of Life?

I may have read it somewhere through Feist's books, probably ExR. Like in the top level there is the Gods, on the second level there are Humans, Elves, Dwarves etc, then it continues down and say that like Demons in level five and Dread in seven.

It's kinda weird how I imagine it, but I believe it has been mentioned somewhere along the lines, possibly in Shards of  Broken Crown too.
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calis'sgirl

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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2004, 12:03:25 AM »

Where is Hell?  I mean like where does it exist?  The only thing i could think of would involve Nakor's bubble theory from Shards i think it is,  could hell be in the middle of the bubble?
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Pugs First Apprentice

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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2004, 05:42:39 AM »

I dont think here is a hell as in a particular place. I think when you die on medkemia you are juged by the Goddess of Death and she decides wether you join with the oneness (the ultimate reward i believe), have another go at the wheel, or face ultimate oblivion.

The other levels i have been speaking off are termed levels of Hell by people in Medkemias reality because they show aspects that would be called hellish by most people in Medkemia's realities. Thats the way i view it now anyway. As for where they are...i have no idea...i think reading Popes Expose' on realities and planar theology would probably best describe it.

Suli, i dont think its right to call them the Sevel Levels of Life if only because its hard to define what life is. What is life? Are the creations from the Seventh Level (cant remember what those dudes are...are they the dread lords?) alive? Is life indicated by simple conciousness? I dont think conciousness is a parameter in life. Bacteria \l life forms are life, hard to see them as being concious, they show behavious etc. Virus's are generally not considered as life. Id see the being from some of the lower levels as virus's to life on the 1st level. Perhaps not so much if they were to enter say the third or forth level.


Hmmmmmmmm that got confusing there for a bit. I think i will try and reword all that when my brain has recovered from its post exam relief. :tongue:
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Suli Abul

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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2004, 08:47:56 AM »

Well maybe not the Seven Levels of Life, but just not the Lower Levels of hell. Instead they are just different planes of existance, maybe in totally different times also. Like in the fifth level, where we can say the demons come from, they have already come to rule the universe by doing to it what they did to Shila.
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