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Author Topic: Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone  (Read 1149 times)

SnruB

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« on: January 01, 2006, 01:07:40 AM »

I have two questions regarding Feists Epic. Both make me appear n00b, but I've always never quite understood two aspects of the Gods and the Lifestone.

Firstly, and the lesser of the two quesitons:

Why didn't Pug/Tomas/Macros/Nakor etc risk to move the lifestone to a more secure place? Such examples might be the Abbey of Sarth, (or That-Which-Was-Sarth or w/e); the new temple above Yabon in the mountains; Sorcerers Isle, Elvandar...

Those are the safest places on all of Midkemia...

Abbey would have monks magic + anything Pug would add

Sorcerers Isle would have a multitude of magicians to guard it, plus whatever wards pug/miranda put on it.

Elvandar would have a multitude of elvish spellweavers + Tomas always around + whatever wards Pug put on it!

They could have used Tomas or Pug to send it out of phase in time like it was in Sethanon, as well as had the magic of Ishap/elves/valheru/eldar/great one's on it! Could have had the oracle of Aal in Elvandar guarding it too!

But no, they decided to keep it in a cursed abandoned city...!



Secondly, in Magician, when Pug's on the tower of testing, and he's looking at the history of Kelewan, he see's the God's of Kelewan sort of as lines of Energy. In RoaDK, when  he's looking for macros, he sees the same thing with Midkemian gods I think.

Are these gods different?
Does every world have their own set of gods? If this is the case, every world could have their own god of evil as powerful if not more powerful than Nalar himself!
And if Nalar was causing so much trouble with demons and dread and the Dragon Host etc, imagine 100 Billion Nalar's type gods joining up from 100 billion worlds...

On Midkemia itself, the gods have different names for different cultures, such as Al-Maral (sp?) is Low Delkian for Ishap... Is this the same on other worlds, in that there's just other names for the same gods within the universe?

I can imagine this is the case for Prandur, the god of fire, or someone like that...




Also: The gods are created from the people just as much as the people are from the gods... But if there were no people on Midkemia when the gods first came, then how did they appear?

The Valheru were happy on Midkemia conquering everyone, and then all of a sudden the two blind gods fled (or were disposed?) and were replaced by a new complex order of gods!
But what brought around these gods? Humans hadn't fled to Midkemia when the gods came... that was almost a millennia onwards!

Perhaps the Ultimate decided to test something different and got rid of the two blind gods of order and chaos and put in 100 lesser and 7 greater gods instead?

We may never know!

Oh, another quesiton, what to the Builder gods actually DO? (The 4 remaining greater gods)


So four questions really:

Why didn't the protectors of the lifestone move it to a more secure location than under the city of Draken-Korin
Are all the gods linked somehow, or distinct gods for every planet, leaving the possibility for more than one god-of-evil?
and How did the gods of Midkemia come into to being if they weren't created by people and to a lesser extent, how did the lesser gods survive without prayers from humans?
What do the four remaining greater gods, the Builders, do?






Thanks


--SnruB
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 01:11:05 AM by SnruB »
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Briana

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2006, 08:05:50 AM »

I think that Sethanon was as relatively “safe” a place as any. A few reasons that could be considered are:

Spoiler: show
•   no one knew the lifestone was at Sethanon, except for a few of the royal family and if you put it somewhere else, say Elvandar or Sarth, many more people/elves would know of it.
•   it was protected by Pug’s wards, he shifted it out of time
•   The city of Sethanon was “haunted”, or at least that’s what was spread around after it’s destruction in the first battle there with Murmandamous, so that people would avoid it and be afraid to have anything to do with it. (thus helping protect it and keep it a secret) “Start some rumour that the city is cursed…I’ll move what’s left of the populace and pay them indemnity. The cities half destroyed anyway.” -Lyam
•   It was deep underground, only approachable through a fissure that opened up in a cave under the rubble of the keep.
•   The oracle of Aal was additional protection to the lifestone, what with being a dragon and all…”she will remain forever vigilant…for if any were to tamper…she would perish along with everyone else upon the planet.” -Pug
•   I don’t think it was movable in any case, as Pug says that even with the magic he inherited from macros he could not penetrate all its mysteries, or even remove Tomas’s sword from it. “for to do so might cause no harm at all or it might unleash what is trapped within.” - Pug

(Darkness at Sethanon)


Haven’t got time to answer the others, perhaps someone else will. Hope that helps a bit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 08:06:34 AM by Briana »
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Alrin

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2006, 09:33:04 AM »

Firstly, remember to use spoiler codes if/when necessary.

Quote from: SnruB
Why didn't Pug/Tomas/Macros/Nakor etc risk to move the lifestone to a more secure place? Such examples might be the Abbey of Sarth, (or That-Which-Was-Sarth or w/e); the new temple above Yabon in the mountains; Sorcerers Isle, Elvandar...
As Briana stated, I don't think it was possible to move the stone without potentially risking all they were trying to protect.


Quote from: Briana
Spoiler: show
•   it was protected by Pug’s wards, he shifted it out of time
Spoiler: show
It was actually shifted in time by Ashen-Shugar, not Pug.
- Darkness at Sethanon spoilers


Quote from: SnruB
On Midkemia itself, the gods have different names for different cultures, such as Al-Maral (sp?) is Low Delkian for Ishap... Is this the same on other worlds, in that there's just other names for the same gods within the universe?
Al-Maral was actually a hertical view of Ishap where instead of the singular 'One Above All', he was considered the 'All God' with each of the lesser gods being but one of his different facets. So it wasn't so much a different name for Ishap as a different view OF Ishap.

And yes, I think Ray implied that all the gods in the universe are the same as those on Midkemia and that they just go by different names on different worlds, but his explanation as to just how (for example, how can they be the same gods on both Midkemia and Kelewan when there's a different number of gods on each planet?) has been pretty poor, and until he tells us more it's a little unclear exactly what the deal is.


Quote from: SnruB
How did the gods of Midkemia come into to being if they weren't created by people and to a lesser extent, how did the lesser gods survive without prayers from humans?
Macros was the one to mention that humans created the gods. While he had fairly superior knowledge, just because he thought it was so doesn't mean he was right. Again, we'll have to wait for more info from Ray on this one.


Quote from: SnruB
What do the four remaining greater gods, the Builders, do?
I don't think Ray has ever made it clear. If one were to judge by their titles, well...

Helbinor doesn't do a great deal. He abstains.
Graff grants wishes and holds sway over people's desire.
Abrem-Sev - the Builder. One would assume he.. builds things.
And Ev-Dem - The Worker from Within. Pretty obscure title that is left open to debatable interpretations.

As to what they DO.. I'd have to say they don't really DO a great deal at all. They leave the doing to mortals (albeit UBER-mortals like Pug and Tomas).




Sorry if that caused more confusion. I gave myself a headache trying to come up with some of the answers. Alot of what has been written about the gods has been contradicted at one time or another. I don't think Ray himself is even clear on how they came to be, how they're all connected, or where he wants to take them. Guess we'll just have to wait and see (and hope for an explanation).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 09:52:55 AM by Alrin »
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SnruB

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2006, 10:02:39 PM »

Quote from: Alrin

Al-Maral was actually a hertical view of Ishap where instead of the singular 'One Above All', he was considered the 'All God' with each of the lesser gods being but one of his different facets. So it wasn't so much a different name for Ishap as a different view OF Ishap.



I already knew this; I gave the wrong example for whatever point I was trying to make... I wasn't going to use the Low Delkian name for Prandur (which would've been a better example), since I was going to use that as a question in the Q&A spam thread heh. (As soon as I work out that damn cup of Rynn Skrr or w/e it is! It's not in any of the books I've read... - that I can remember!)

Thanks for the other replies the gods etc: I have noticed Feist tends to contradict himself sometimes, but hey, can't complain after over a dozen books...!

Thanks again

--SnruB
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coeshaw

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2006, 11:04:49 AM »

Quote from: SnruB
Thanks for the other replies the gods etc: I have noticed Feist tends to contradict himself sometimes, but hey, can't complain after over a dozen books...!

Yes he does contradict himself a bit especially with some elements relating to the Gods, timelines and royal family trees. These are things fans question all the time as they stand out but I don't think Ray writes down everything so he can reference stuff, so these types of errors will creep into the books unlike Martin who has complete family trees and backstory for most people already writtern.
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Dacilion

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2006, 09:31:00 AM »

Perhaps we should link the workings of the Greater Gods simply with the way the universe functions, hence laws of physics as can be understood on Midkemia

the Abstainer could entropy
the Builder represent interacting forces (electromagnetic...)
the Worker from within would be gravitational force...
etc

The Squire Of Forest Deep

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2006, 02:20:31 PM »

I think all the gods in the universe aree the same with different names, but that doesnt really make sense. Human nature would dictate that human gods would be universally uniform or close to it, but humans arent the only races that make gods, are they? Different races  would make different gods.
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Dacilion

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2006, 08:14:40 AM »

The gods came to Midkemia-Kelewan-wherever else at the time of the Rainbow Bridge, along with humans. that we know from Pug's vision on the Tower of Testing
and 1) expelled the previous gods of Kelewan (those "created" by the previous races, the indigeneous ones)
2) Rathar and Mythar the indigeneous gods of Midkemia are said to have "fled" or being "gone"

So these 2 worlds had indigeneous gods which seems logical if they have to be "made" by the local inhabitants
We know nothing about worship by the dwarves who apparently came into Midkemia at the same time as humans. Are they atheists ?  

SnruB

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2006, 11:28:52 AM »

Interesting points!

Quote from: Dacilion
and 1) expelled the previous gods of Kelewan (those "created" by the previous races, the indigeneous ones)
All the times I've read Magician I've missed those 2 sentences...! I looked it up just then, and I realised you were right. Didn't know there were indiginous gods of Kelewan, but it makes sense all things considered.
Quote from: Dacilion
2) Rathar and Mythar the indigeneous gods of Midkemia are said to have "fled" or being "gone"
I thought they were disposed of before humans et al came to Midkemia... The question here is: did the humans come to Earth before the Chaos wars to escape the Dragon Host, or, did they come to Midkemia DURING the chaos wars to escape that madness. If it was the former, Rathar and Mythar would've been expelled by the new gods. Otherwise, the new gods already existed... I was under the impression that it was the latter, that the humans came during the chaos wars...

Quote from: Dacilion
We know nothing about worship by the dwarves who apparently came into Midkemia at the same time as humans. Are they atheists ?
Lol. Feist doesn't write much about dwarves. I suspect they acknowledge the gods, not necessarily worship them...? but who knows...

You said we knew that the midkemian gods rathar and mythar (s.p.?) were disposed of by the new gods from pugs vision, but thats wrong... there's nothing at all about midkemia in pugs vision - he didn't even know he was from midkemia then, if you remember heh. You're confused with Tomas' visions of Ashen Shugar. Give me 5 minutes... I'll look it up and see what it says...


Strange, I can't find it. Must be in Sethanon. 5 more minutes...

FOUND IT! I quote: " Mythar let loose the strands of power and from them the new gods arose. Without Rathar to knit the strands of pwoer together, these beings will seize that power and establish an order. ..." -- Draken Korin, aDaS. (Page 419 in my book)

Ok. Page 425. The history of man on Midkemia:
Spoiler: show
It says that the gods banished the Valheru from the universe into another dimension. Then in a near mindless rampage they plundered worlds. Mortals like dwarves and humans banded together and feld to other worlds like KElewan and Midkemia.
aDaS

So this tells us the gods were there before the humans, so the humans didn't create them, per se. This contradicts to the musings of Nakor and Pug (was it those two) about the Midkemian gods origins...



Listen to this: When pug's on the tower of testing and looking at the gods of Kewlewan: Magician, page 417:
"At various points in the web, creatures of power rest or work, each different from the others, but all SOMEHOW THE SAME."        Backs up what you said before I suppose.



--SnruB
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Dacilion

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Two questions on the Gods + the Lifestone
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 12:37:30 PM »

I'm glad we are in agreement  
When I mentioned the vision of Pug, it was that of the early gods of Kelewan of course

We then have an apparent contradiction :
new gods created from "strands of power blah blah blah" and "new gods" coming into Kelewan along (just before) humankind

BUT ! The Chaos Wars raged for millenia...
An easy way for Ray to put the hot potato out of his hands  

Different aspects of the gods, well... reminds me of Frank Herbert's "Whipping Star" wherein the Caliban was one of divers aspects of a star innit?
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